Berta Williams Interview
September 2009
Part III
Charlotte: You were telling us about the pigeon holes in the desk and who would get their
mail there. I think you gave us a list of the people who were in the Catalina Mountains
and the Galiuro Mountains. Who were some of the people that got their mail from your
post office?
B: The people from the Catalina Mountains who had ranches were Opie Parker, Jimmy
Bryant, the Ross’s, the MacIntyre’s and the Boulton(?) brothers. They were trappers.
They used to trap animals and skin them.
Charlotte: What kind of animals?
B: They had fox and squirrels and I forget what others. And then they’d bundle them up
and wrap them up real good and then send them in the mail. Mother used to…
C: They’d send them in the mail?
B: Yea, I don’t know where to.
C: Did she help them to wrap up the packages?
B: No, they did it themselves. They were two brothers.
C: I wonder what they used to put… what did they pack the packages inside?
B: They put burlap sacks. And paper. Paper and then I think burlap sacks around them
and tied ‘ em.
C: Were the others all ranchers? Opie Parker?
B: Yes.
C: And Jimmy Bryant was a rancher?
B: Yes, they all had property.
C: The Ross’s, the MacIntryre’s…
B: ( 1: 46) And the Galiuro Mountains, there was the Wiley’s. I think his first name was
Forrest Wiley. And then the __________ Wilson’s (?). The _____________ Stiller’s.
The _____________ Ocheo. And the ranch was his son’s _____________ Ocheo. Mr.
Francisco Morano. Floyd Bingham. And the Valdesso’s. And Mr. Montano. He was
the one who farmed too for us at one time.
C: What was Mr. Montano���s first name?
B: Francisco.
C: Francisco.
B: He’s the one that, uh, oh no, it was Mr. Morano, it wasn’t Mr. Montano from your…
C: Right. From the Postal History Foundation.
B: …. that you were asking about. I don’t know if I told… he used to farm for my dad. I
don’t know if I was telling that.
C: That Mr. Montano did farm for your dad.
B: Yes, after Mr. Morano left. And then the school teachers, the Smallhouse’s and us the
__________(?) ________________
C: Thank you. So Mr. Montano who was doing the faming for you, working in your
garden, what year do you think that would have been? Were you a little girl then?
B: I was maybe about 16 or 17.
C: So maybe in the 40’ s?
B: Yes, it’s probably in the late 40’ s.
B: Yes, this was maybe for about five years.
C: So did he have children there?
B: Yes. He had four. Three girls and a boy.
C: Do you remember their names?
B: There was Grace, Minny… No, they only had three. Grace, Minny and Raul was the
boy. Had three kids.
C: And did they live in Reddington?
B: No, they lived in our property.
C: On your property?
B: Yeah, we had a little house right down from the Diamond R, the main house.
C: And that’s where they could come and help? But the kids were there too.
B: Yeah.
C: So you must have played with them or were you a little older then?
B: Yes, we used to play with them.
C: What all do you remember about WWII? When you were on the ranch?
B: Oh all I remember was that my brother Fidel was in the Marines. He went to the war
and he was wounded. He was shot in the hand. And right thru here.
C: In the neck.
B: And you could still feel the bullet that was here. And it went out in his back.
C: And he survived that. He was shot in the neck and he survived that?
B: Yes, he was in the hospital and the funniest part about it is that when he was in the
hospital, before he, they were just going to dismiss him, when the war ended. So his was
lucky they didn’t have to send him back.
C: Where did he serve? Do you know?
B: He served in Okinawa.
C: Oh boy. So did you have news of him at all?
B: Once in a while. Very rare. That’s another thing that I got in trouble with. When my
mother didn’t hear from him, in fact, there’s a letter that I have somewhere about when
she wrote, to find out about him. She didn’t hear from him so she decided she was going
to send a telegram. And we, I had to go up to the mail box, ‘ cause my younger brothers
were in school. So I had to go on horseback across the San Pedro River to get the mail.
( 5: 57) And my mother decided she was, because she knew the mailman. She had him a
long time when she was at the Roquello homestead. There was a mailman, Mr.
Tr________. And then he came back right to work, when she didn’t have the post office
anymore, but she knew him and she trusted him. So she wrote a telegram to inquire
about my brother and she wanted me to take it over with the money to give to Mr
Tr___________ to send this telegram for her. So, I saddled up the horse and went, and
then on the way there was, the Carlink ranch had a family living in their house, called the
Davis (?). So I stopped there to play with the kids.
C laughs.
B: And then the house was so big. It was a family, the Valdasso’s living on this side and
the Montano’s living on the other end. So I stopped and I was playing with the kids and
the lady Mrs. Montano, Vicky, asked me to have breakfast with them. They were having
breakfast. So I had breakfast with them.
C laughs.
B: And when I went over there, the mail had already gone.
C: Oh no!
B: So I got the telegram and I hid it.
C: Oh no!
B: And I went home and hid it in my room. And my mother said, “ Did you mail the
telegram?” And I said, “ Oh yes!” Cause I had planned it. It was Friday and Mr.
Tr__________ wouldn’t be back till Monday. But I got caught before Monday. And
then, I guess I’m not a good liar because she noticed that something was amiss. And uh,
so she said, “ Come here.” And I knew, I was shaking like a leaf. And she said, “ You
aren’t telling me the truth, are you?” And she looked straight at me and I put my head
down. I said, “ No.” And she said, “ What happened?” So I told her. So I was in trouble
again.
C laughs.
C: It happened to you a lot, didn’t it?
B: Yeah, she would have been…. I felt bad because she started crying and crying because
she was worried about my brother. And I felt bad and I knew I had to be very, very, very
wrong.
C: Well, I’m so glad he was ok after all. How did you hear about his injury? ( 9: 03)
B: They sent mother a telegram.
C: And how would the telegram get to her?
B: It would go to Benson. And from Benson, the mailman would deliver it.
C: So did she handle telegrams when she was postmistress also?
B: I don’t remember her doing that. I think she was the first one to ever send a telegram
in the mail.
C: We didn’t ask you, when is your birthday? When were you born?
B: In ’ 25.
C: That was the year, and what was the date?
B: April 6.
C: April 6, 1925.
B: Yeah, and my brother used to say I was almost a fool.
C laughs.
C: Too many brothers you had I think!
B: Yes, especially my older one. Naughty! One day, we were little, and he was like my
mom, he wanted me always to be polite. So my mother ran out of coffee, I think it was.
So she sent me over to my uncle’s, which you had to go by the school house and down
the hill. And on the way there, he lectured me all the way that when we get there, you
say in Spanish “ Buenas Dias, como esta usted?” And repeat it and he made me repeat it
and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. So when we got there, I got embarrassed so I hid
behind him. And my brother, I think he was born with a rope in his hand, He always
carried a little rope. I could tell he was mad at me. And we rode coming back. We had
to go by, there was, I don’t know what kind of tree it was, it was on the Roquillo ranch,
but it was so beautiful, it was just big. And there was a limb that stuck out. So we were
getting closer and he started doing this with his rope…
C laughs.
B: I didn’t know what he was going to do. So then he’d rope me and he let the rope go
down to me feet and he strung me up to the tree.
C laughs.
B: I was always getting saved though because my uncle was going to his house for lunch.
And he saw me hanging there so he let me down and he got his belt. He took his belt off
and he started whacking Fidel. Fidel got it from my uncle and when we got home he got
it from my mother and then my dad.
C: What about you? Did you know how to lasso?
B: No.
C: No. You were a good rider but you didn’t get to practice with the rope.
B: No. I don’t think my dad would have let me. Yeah, he was always trying to correct
me. He was always so bossy.
C: Because he was the oldest one. How much older was he?
B: Two years.
C: Two years. And then how much from you to Frank?
B: Seven.
C: Seven years. Big gap.
B: From Ben, three years.
C: So you were three years older than Ben and then another four years to Frank. Ok.
B: Yeah. ( 12: 20)
C: Well, so many stories.
B: Yeah. I just wondered, “ Gosh, how could I have been so naughty?”
C: Maybe you weren’t naughty, maybe you just got caught a lot.
B: Well, that too.
B and C both laugh.
C: Or you got framed by your brothers. Always, they were pointing their fingers at you
even if you didn’t do it.
B: Yeah, sometimes.
C: But your mother didn’t get in trouble. She didn’t do things wrong.
B: No, she was like my… the one that took after my mother, Fidel didn’t and I didn’t.
Frank did too in some, in ways. But Ben was quiet like my, he was quiet but he had the
patience of my mother. She had a lot of patience.
C: But you said he didn’t speak for the first five years.
B: No.
C: That must have been hard for all of you.
B: Yes it was. He’d point. And we knew and we understood what he wanted. But she
thought he was going to be a mute.
C: And did he just start talking one day?
B: Mmmhmm. Not clearly, but he started talking. The first thing he’d speak… There
was a song called “ Happy days are here again.”
C: Yes.
B: And he used to try to sing it when he was. He just to say, “ Happy Days Callah
Callah.”
C laughs.
B: Stuff like that. We understood he was trying to sing the song because we had just
sung it. He was trying to sing it.
C: So he got there in his own time.
B: Yes, mhhmm he did. My brother Frank was the one that really took after, the
youngest one, after my mother. He was very smart. He was, he would go to school and
he’d do his homework just like that in school so he’d get bored and we���d have these great
big geography books. And he’d take a comic book, he had comic books, and he’d put it
in between the pages and put it like this. And the teacher saw him and thought he started
studying his geography, but he was reading a comic book.
C: But I bet he got away with it if was that quick at doing his work.
B: Yeah. And I used to get mad at him because he didn’t never have homework.
C laughs.
B: And he’s the one that went to college. When he was in college, they came to talk to
my mother because they were recommending that he join the ROTC. So he did, he went
to ROTC. And then from ROTC, he enlisted. He went to Officer Candidate School.
And then from there he was, he went into the service. The army.
C: Do you think he knew that he wanted to become a soldier or was it the circumstances?
The war came along.
B: No, I think he… He didn’t fight, you know, but he was training others.
C: As an officer.
B: Yeah, he was a lieutenant, a first lieutenant. But he was very smart. He worked for
NASA. He designed the first, some of the parts that they used for that, the Sputnik.
C: Really? Wow.
B: He was working for, he was a chemical engineer. He worked for Lockheed. He
worked for, um, I forget the other one he worked for. Yeah, and then they sent him to
Florida. He worked for NASA. That’s where he died, in Florida. Of a heart attack.
C: Of a heart attack. You didn’t see him for a long time then I bet.
B: Well, he’d fly home once in a while. ( 16: 30) But he was the one that took after my
mother who was always reading. Remember when he was going school, he was going to
college, he came home with a great big old book like that. I was making fun of him,
teasing him. I said, “ Shoot, you’ll never finish that book.” I think he might have said,
“ You wait and see.” And all of a sudden, he was taking it back. I said, “ I didn’t know he
was a speed reader.”
C: So he got through the whole thing, hunh? Surprised all of you.
B: Yes, I was shocked.
C: What about Fidel? What ended up happening to Fidel?
B: He took after my dad, a cowboy. He was a very good cowboy.
C: And so he was a rancher? Did he have a ranch?
B: He worked on a ranch.
C: And what about Ben?
B: He was in construction. He liked construction.
C: Was he in Tucson?
B: Yes.
X: May I ask a question?
C: Absolutely.
X: You said your mom was the youngest of 12 kids. Did her brothers and sisters live
near her? I know you said the one lived in Oracle, but were the other ones close? ( 17: 45)
B: Yes.
X: So you had lots of aunts and uncles when you were growing up.
B: Oh yes. Yeah, my grandmother had two sets of twins. The first set died almost right
after child… they were born. And then the other two twins were born just before my
mother. And one of them, Joaquim (?) he died when he was about 8 years old. He had
typhoid fever. He died, but the other one lived to be 70 something.
C: Really?
B: Yeah, Tomas.
C: So, what is that… nine of them lived to adulthood then?
B: Yes. Oh and then she had a sister that died young. She was, Mama said she was
about 20 when she died. Her name was Seraphina.
C: A lot of twins in your family then.
B: Yeah, but none of us, but no one that I know of this generation that had any twins.
Yeah, she had two sets.
C laughs.
B: And my mother was the youngest of all. There were more boys than girls. There was
only four girls and the rest were boys.
C: I bet she did a lot of work, carrying of water.
B: Yeah.
C: I wonder how she got the idea that she wanted to learn to read and write? And if she
was six years old. She must have seen someone who could do that or heard about it
somehow. How would she even know about that?
B: I don’t know. The only thing I could think of was they lived on the Roquillo ranch on
the way to that outhouse (?) there was a great big rock. She said she’d go there and she’d
set there and think and think and think. And then she’d start crying because she hear the
kids going to school and they’d have to ride past the Roquillo house to get to school.
And she’d cry and cry because she was wishing she’d be one of those kids that was going
to school. And she was six years old. I used to tell the kids, we’d laugh because she
would write on everything. Those little, those little match books, she’d write on them
and I’d tell the kids, “ Don’t stand too close to Mama for a long time, or she’s going to
start writing on you.”
B and C laugh.
C: Was she the one who wrote on the photographs?
B: Yes.
C: That’s her writing then. Ok. I think, you said she was very precise sometimes too. If
you were going to go do an errand, what would she ask you to buy?
B: She would make a list. She would start with, you know, her, ‘ specially her coffee was
the first on the list. She loved coffee. Coffee, milk, and she always had Swiss Chard,
the greens you know.
C: Oh sure.
B: She loved Swiss Chard. And stuff, she would, you know, she liked. Then, and then
other stuff, you know, that she thought that we would like.
C: And where would you go to purchase that?
B: When we were here in Tucson?
C: Oh that was when you were in Tucson?
B: Yeah. Out at Redington, she’d make a list. I didn’t see it. My dad, she’d give it to
my dad. And he’s the one who’d come to town and buy the stuff.
C: Something about the denomination of stamps I remember.
B: Oh yes, she would. Denomination, you know, so and so denomination. Like the cost
of the stamp.
C: Because she was very precise.
B: And then when she would describe somebody. I don’t know how she could
remember… she could tell you the color their hair, their eyes, how tall they were, if they
were slim. And she wouldn’t…. one time, she’d bawl me out because I said, “ Look, that
woman is so fat.” And she said, “ She is not fat. I don’t ever want you to say that again.
She is pleasingly plump!”
C laughs.
B: She would get so mad. She didn’t like us to call, you know, like nick names, she
didn’t want us to call, you know, ourselves nick names.
C: She was very polite it sounds like and teaching good manners. But you were called
Sis.
B: Yes, because Frank started calling me that. Because he couldn’t say my name too
well. So he started calling me Sis.
C: And she called you that too?
B: No.
C: No.
B: Just Berta.
B laughs.
C: Do you know who you were named after? Was there any Berta in your family?
B: No, I don’t know. I have a sneaking suspicion, but I don’t know. I think she wanted
to name me after my dad but she didn’t want to make it so obvious. My dad’s middle
name was Robert. But, I think she didn’t want to name me Roberta, so she just cut the
Ro off.
C: Oooohhh.
B: That’s what I think. But I never asked her because I would, you know, have been in
trouble. But that’s what I think.
C: That makes sense.
B: Because that was her love. He was, he was such a nice man. Before he’d go, like if
he was going on the round up and be gone, he’d make sure that she had, you know,
everything. And when he was home, he’d always, I can remember, even ‘ till the day he
died, he always took her coffee to her in bed every morning.
C: Awww. It sounds like he really loved her.
B: And he was the one, you know she couldn’t be participating in our school, you know,
like she should have. So he was the one - like on Holloween, he’d make, he and boys
would make the Wigwams.
C: Oh yea.
B: Out of corn, corn stalks. And then he’d get sticks and sharpen the end so it’d look like
a pencil, so we could put our hot dog on it and we’d have hot dogs. And then for dessert
we’d have the marshmallows and toast them. And then he’d string a string across and
put, tie apples onto so we could have a contest ( 24: 38) to tie our hands back and to see if
we could eat the apples. And then he would get a tub of water, fill it with water, and put
apples in it. And we’d bob for apples. And then on Christmas, he would be the Santa
Claus. And then at the end of school, he would, at the end of school we would have…
C: Is that your friend?
B: Oh no, that’s my daughter’s husband’s worker. He works with Oscar (?)…..
( Taped maybe shut off and back on mid sentence?)
B: and he married a girl from Germany. And when he died, his wife Ursula went back to
Germany for a while because my mother hadn’t heard from her. So she got real anxious
about her, so Ursula had given her uncle’s address in Germany. So my mother, we didn’t
know my mother had been studying German. And we didn’t know. Then she wrote to
her uncle, in German. Wrote to her uncle.
C: I wonder how she studied German? She just taught herself?
B: I don’t know. That was a mystery to us. We still don’t know. Well, she’s dead. But
still I can’t figure it out. And then he would write back to her and told her that she was
fine and you know, this and that. He wrote back to her in German. So, and then when
she passed away, we were cleaning her room, and under the mattress, she didn’t want us
to know, she had studied Chinese.
C: For heaven’s sake. That’s not a language you can teach yourself really very easily.
B: But I never knew how she was… I don’t know, she used to stun us with the things she
would do.
C: She sounded like she had a real curiosity, a thirst for knowledge. Wanting to go to
school when she was a little girl and teaching herself languages later on.
B: Yeah. We just couldn’t believe it. Like always, we used to laugh at her because we
were out at the ranch one day, she said it was Friday. It was Friday. She said, “ Boys, I
want you to get up early in the morning and I want you to clean the yard. Cut all the
weeds from around the front of the house and the sides.” ‘ Cause in the back there wasn’t
too many weeds. It was always in front. And to me she said, “ I want you to clean the
house thoroughly.” She said, “ And I mean thoroughly.” She knew.
B and C laugh.
B: She said, “ Because your uncle is coming from Tucson, and he’s bringing some people
with him.” We thought she was flipping because she hadn’t received any mail, letters.
Because I used to get the mail and I’d look at the letters before I’d get home. And no
letter, no nothing. We didn’t have a telephone. So I thought… So I went out with the
boys and I said… and then Fidel, my brother, the oldest said, “ I think Mom’s losing her
mind.” And Ben and I agreed. Why is she making us do this when she says our uncle is
coming. He’s bringing friends with him, his neighbor, his neighbors… So we were
worried, very worried. And then Saturday, about 1: 00 we heard a car. It was coming
down the hill. Sure enough, it was my uncle, her brother and he was bringing his
neighbors. How did she know?
C: So she just knew in her head? She had that sense or that feeling?
B: Probably. But we thought she was losing her mind.
C: Boy, she had a special intuition it sounds like. ( 29: 26)
B: She sure did, especially about me she did. She knew when I was doing something
naughty.
C: … doing something wrong…
C and B both laugh.
C: Well, we should probably stop because we don’t want to take any more of your time.
But again, thank you.
B: I’m the one that should thank you.
End ( 29: 44)
